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Discussion of systemd adoption by Debian, openrc, sysvinit

Discussion in 'General Linux Discussion' started by ThunderRd, Nov 21, 2014.

  1. ThunderRd

    ThunderRd Irreverent Query Chairman Staff Member

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    Edit:
    The following posts moved from another hjacked thread here, in the interest of having a place to continue the discussion if there are developments.
    -thunderrd


    Even the Linux OS devs can't get it together. Lots of lolz here:

    http://debianfork.org/

    But a more realistic view of the systemd thing here:

    http://news.siduction.org/
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2014
  2. allenskd

    allenskd Active Member

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    Last post I read regarding systemd was that it killed linux and all distributions. Gotta say it has gotten quite sensational these past few months.
  3. booman

    booman Grand High Exalted Mystic Emperor of Linux Gaming Staff Member

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    Exactly, If it "killed" Linux, then it must have been WAY better than what I'm using now. ;)
  4. allenskd

    allenskd Active Member

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  5. ThunderRd

    ThunderRd Irreverent Query Chairman Staff Member

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    Their main reason for forking is utter horseshit. I really wonder if it is going to gain real traction.

    I use Gentoo, Debian stable, and an unstable Debian derivative regularly, and all of them have a way to remain systemd-free if the user so desires.

    Their main arguments are that Debian (and some other distros) has elected (through proper, extensive study and a vote of the devs) to make systemd the default init system. And that it is being 'forced' onto users. And it does too much. And that as an init system it 'doesn't know what it wants to be'. And ...

    No one is 'forcing' something on a user simply because it's been made the default. My main machine runs Gentoo. The Gentoo devs have NOT adopted systemd as the default. But many Gentoo users ARE using it. I could, too, if I WANTED to. Is Gentoo 'forcing ' me to use sysvinit? Absolutely not. systemd is supported in Gentoo, just like the default init system, so I have a choice.

    Debian, Ubuntu and some others are adopters of systemd. I am not being 'forced' to use it. The unstable Sid machine at my house runs systemd; not because I prefer it (actually, I don't) but because I chose to install it so I can learn it, because it might come in handy to know how it works someday.

    Sid rolls, so who cares, anyway? Do what you want.

    If you're a first-time installer, installing from the .iso, you are given a choice in the install routine. Use this, or use that: if you make no choice, it installs systemd. It's as simple as that. If you're a novice, you won't know what to choose, so you'll get systemd.

    Incidentally, the reason I don't particularly like it is that it DOES do way more than one thing, it's involved in the power management and other stuff, and in some ways doesn't follow the modular Linux philosophy of doing one thing well. Will it become a sore point over time? Maybe. Don't install it if that is your feeling. In my way of thinking, it has far too many other things depending on it, and I think that will make it a 'dependency hog' in the long run, requiring more and more packages to rely on its presence, and making it more and more difficult to remove.

    At the end of the day, though, I'll tell you the real, deep meaning of all this mess. In the dev world, it is a resistance to Poettering and Co, and their past record. Just like what happened in the kernel team with Ingo Molnar and Con Kolivas a few years back, there are some folks who simply can't work together.
  6. allenskd

    allenskd Active Member

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    I agree very much with the last part. It's not as much an init system problem, imho, it's the people behind it. Same guys who hates the guts of Miguel de Icaza, it really shocks me sometimes how things are "solved". Plus as far as I know Debian maintainers are still providing sysvinit scripts with applications. I guess eventually if applications integrates part of systemd for whatever reason it'll be harder eventually for them to escape reality.

    Agreed on the novice user not noticing, nor he/she should be aware; those things need to be as transparent as possible as not to obstruct the user in any way.

    Only problem I had with systemd was with mpd and it was a combination of mpd + dbus + systemd, it seems mpd.service is pretty much isolated and doesn't know that dbus is already running. Quite messy as I'm still not used to systemd as whole, gotta sit down and learn a bit more. Beyond that? I'm super happy with my Debian Jessie installation.

    I just hope this fuss over the init system is over soon. Hopefully they'll pick on something else.
  7. ThunderRd

    ThunderRd Irreverent Query Chairman Staff Member

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    There are devs 'in the know' who are accusing Poettering of designing systemd with the sole aim of getting as many other packages as possible to depend on it. Ostensibly, this would be to strengthen the need for wider systemd usage.

    I don't *really* think that it's coded with that in mind, but I do feel that it might become so. And so do many others who have forgotten much, much more than I've ever known :)
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2014
  8. booman

    booman Grand High Exalted Mystic Emperor of Linux Gaming Staff Member

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    I restored Allen's post ;)

    If there is a concern about New Linux users installing a process without knowing what it "really" is, I think this is important.
    I've read a bit about this conflict and even both of your posts here and still don't fully understand init and systemd
    So even as a power user, I would just use the defaults because I wouldn't understand either of them anyways.

    You are right that we aren't "forced" to use either one, but 99% of the time beginners and power users just run what comes out-of-the-box. Cause we ain't programmers.

    My concern is about Ubuntu, Mint and other distro's that are based on Debian. How will this affect them in the long run?
    Will there be a forked Ubuntu and Mint in response to this conflict?
  9. allenskd

    allenskd Active Member

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    If you read the article from siduction guys (I think it was from them). Systemd service scripts are super simple to build, and using journalctl isn't that hard to use (journalctl -u [SERVICE unit]) (although I noticed that if you use it as a non-priviledged user there won't be any logs, gotta be either sudo or root user)

    Now like ThunderRd said, there are a lot of people against it just because of the key developer which is Lennart Poettering, he's also behind PulseAudio which as we know it has received a LOT of flak throughout the years.
  10. booman

    booman Grand High Exalted Mystic Emperor of Linux Gaming Staff Member

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    That is still "programmer language" to me :(
    It really seems like a developer controversy and since its an open community, people can fork if they want to.
    Instead of fighting, just fork it... I guess

    Hell, we all have a hard enough time getting along with laws, rules, money, religion, politics
    It sucks we have to fight in the digital world as well.

    I actually love Pulseaudio! It provides some amazing features that Alsa doesn't support.
    The main problems I have is Wine not supporting Pulseaudio... probably for the same reason and this Debian controversy.
  11. ThunderRd

    ThunderRd Irreverent Query Chairman Staff Member

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    Err...can you tell me how you restored that post <sigh>
    I could not find the secret sauce.
  12. Daerandin

    Daerandin Active Member

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    Being just a regular user, I personally quite like systemd. I find it easy to both use and manipulate. Also regarding journalctl, you either need root privileges, or your user can be part of the systemd-journal group. The systemd-journal group only have read access to the journal, so for a system with many users it would be ideal to have users part of the systemd-journal group. That way they have full read access to the journal, but you would not need to give them full root privileges through sudo if that is not desirable.

    If you want to search through the logs with grep you would need to use a specific argument: --no-pager

    Then you can pipe the output to grep. The -b argument is also very useful in case you want to see the log from a specific boot. -b-0 (or just -b) shows last boot (current boot). While -b-1 shows previous boot, -b-2 shows the boot before that, and so on. And for anyone wishing to have all the logs forwarded to a different syslog daemon, that can easly be specified in /etc/systemd/logind.conf

    So I have quite a positive view of systemd, I've found it to be easy to work with. However, it should be noted that systemd was already the default init system for Arch when I first started using Arch, so I learned as a part of my learning experience for Arch.
  13. ThunderRd

    ThunderRd Irreverent Query Chairman Staff Member

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    Interestingly enough, I was hanging out at #gentoo-chat for a while this evening and followed closely this conversation, which, for once, I was NOT a part of:

    I checked the number of binaries installed by systemd. It's 69. Now, I don't know about you all, but having a such huge rewrite of this much of the base system, with 69 binaries all reporting to the same guy, (and coded with glibc in mind, BTW, also belonging to the same guy, which has been highly controversial over the last several years) boggles the mind as to how it will be adequately maintained. It is an absolute MONSTER.

    It went on after this, but the main ideas on both sides are fairly expressed here by some knowledgeable folks.

    Incidentally, it's basically my fault, reading back, but we are wildly off-topic here; would it be a good for me to open a new thread and move this stuff into it? There might be more people wanting to weigh in on the topic, and this discussion might heat up even more in the near future.
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2014
  14. allenskd

    allenskd Active Member

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    While I don't want to scratch off the chat log. I'm going to remain open to see what systemd will provide in the future. Much has been said, chat log is more or less the same of the things I've read from reddit users. What worries me is the no specs part, hopefully someone in their team will fix that once they stabilize systemd, plus it'd be nicer to see what they'll be satisfying on the road. As for the famous "unix philosophy" I'm calling BS, a lot of applications rarely follow unix philosophy suddenly it's one of the complaints.

    I don't think I'll add much to the thread if there's a new one for systemd. Much of it will echo what has been said before, concerns about not having "choices". I think we should take everything with a grain of salt and not let our emotions blind us, thus remaining objective.

    And yea, we have derailed this so much, hahah.
  15. Aryvandaar

    Aryvandaar Active Member

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    I love OpenRC, it's more verbose, and from personal experience with it and Systemd I think that it's more stable. However, I don't really have anything against Systemd, I just prefer OpenRC.
  16. Gizmo

    Gizmo Chief Site Administrator Staff Member

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    I've contributed some small patches for SELinux to OpenRC. The code is mostly clean and relatively easy to understand, and OpenRC accomplishes pretty much the same goals as systemd without making 3/4s of the universe dependent on it.

    IMO, systemd is a good idea, badly implemented. Why RedHat have chosen to go with it baffles me.
    Aryvandaar likes this.
  17. ThunderRd

    ThunderRd Irreverent Query Chairman Staff Member

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    And this just about sums it all up:

    systemd.jpeg
  18. ThunderRd

    ThunderRd Irreverent Query Chairman Staff Member

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    Or this:
    syste.md.gif

    Attached Files:

  19. ThunderRd

    ThunderRd Irreverent Query Chairman Staff Member

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  20. Aryvandaar

    Aryvandaar Active Member

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    So when someone disagrees with you said person is a troll?

    Complaining about something you like make said person a troll?

    Christopher's writing is not baity enough or aggressive enough for him to be a troll.

    I've heard those before, mostly by people trying to silence someone for their opinion.

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