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Have you ever noticed something in its absence?

Discussion in 'Random Nonsense' started by Daniel~, Feb 9, 2017.

  1. Daniel~

    Daniel~ Chief BBS Administrator Staff Member

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    "Indivisible!"
  2. cloasters

    cloasters Well-Known Member

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    And being poor doesn't automatically make one a good person. I'm willing to bet that a few of the folks at the bottom of the heap are nearly saints in the amount of good will they generate. Maybe about three million?
    I can't find even one good ultra wealthy person. What's worse is that they don't care about it. All empathy vanishes with great wealth.
    Yet some of them will INSIST that they care about others!
  3. Daniel~

    Daniel~ Chief BBS Administrator Staff Member

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    Money will gravitate to those who care most about it. Money will create it's own separate base of power. This ALWAYS in direct opposition to the good of the many...or why form such power bases?
    These hidden and known separate agendas slowing gain more power than the government that was formed to "Serve the will of the people."

    The result is what we have seen for the last 6 years. An almost complete inability to act. Except to frustrate those who would act.

    Now comes the time of revolution. Now comes change and alternation. Take care to stay in the middle my friends. Revolution is no time to get caught out in the extremities!!

    All war that is, is the redistribution of wealth.

    Resolution is civil war. Civil war is when the masses rise up and seek better governance. When they rid themselves of undue debt (Education loans)

    Force the rich to let go of the past by whatever means necessary and move be ahead, which always means the solving of the REAL problems that confront us. The problems the rich cover up and conceal, Lying to us at every turn. Revolution uncovers what is hidden like spring finds each seed.

    Revolution can weigh things and make them just. But it can also install a tyrant. In times of revolution good men seek to be active, wise men await the right time. With revolution timing is to cease the right moment and bring about the right change "on the basis of what is possible at he moment.

    We "need someone with clear convincing and inspiring aims and the strength to carry them out."
    We need work upon our selves until their arrival. We will know them as upon their heels comes revolution.
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2017
  4. cloasters

    cloasters Well-Known Member

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    Funny, isn't it? I'd rather badmouth those that I think deserve it than work on myself. Human nature in action?
  5. Daniel~

    Daniel~ Chief BBS Administrator Staff Member

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    Alas it has always been easier to remove the splinter in another's eye than the log in our own eye.
  6. cloasters

    cloasters Well-Known Member

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    Extremely well said and so very true! Maybe the log(s) are the reason that my vision isn't improving with age?
  7. Kaitain

    Kaitain Active Member

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    Money and wealth is not inherently evil. A person who saves his income and invests the surplus to the point that he no longer has to work is not by definition evil. An inventor, whose invention brings her enormous wealth is not by definition evil. Neither is the entrepreneur necessarily a bad person, simply for seeing a way to turn an idea into money. Artists, performers, sportsmen et al might arguably be rewarded disproportionately for their contribution to society, but are not necessarily evil. And their actions are not necessarily in opposition with the good of the many.

    A corporation is also not necessarily evil. It is unfortunately the nature of the beast that what is best for the survival of the corporation stands in opposition to what is best for the survival of its customers and employees. If at its core, the sole purpose of a corporation is to supply goods and/or services for profit, then its sole purpose is to minimise supply and labour costs on the one side, whilst simultaneously charging as high a price for its product as it can. And for the survival of the corporate organism, it makes sense to manipulate its (political/regulatory) environment to its best advantage. In short, its behaviours are identical to that of its workers, but its aims are the exact opposite. And what is a government but a corporation defined by geography?

    So is it really "the rich" that should attract your ire, or should it really be "the powerful." Is it the fact that people have more money than you - that society can spawn Kardiashians, "bling," the Burj Khalifa (a snip at $1500 per night) or the first class cabin on an A380. Or is it that some people aren't satisfied with having plenty, but also have the desire to control everyone around them?

    I'd say that the root of evil is not money, but the will to power - the desire some people have to tell us where and how we can live, where and how we can behave, or dress, or believe. It's power that attracts sociopaths and bullies. They might be rich, but - just look at Donald Trump - the acquisition of wealth is incidental to the acquisition of power. He could have got richer by simply sticking the million-odd dollars his father gave him into an S&P 500 tracker, then lived a quiet life. But that wasn't what he wanted. He wanted to rule - to have his name in gold on buildings, to dominate everybody around him, and have them do what he wanted, and it is that single-minded pursuit of power, of "me above all else" that has put his odiousness into the White House.

    Let's face it, though - government was originally formed to "serve the will of the people," just so long as those people were white men of standing. There is a delicious irony that the phrase "all men are created equal" was written by a slaver.

    Emancipation of women, universal suffrage, abolition of slavery, universal civil rights, freedom of sexuality, female control of their own fertility... every single one of these rights has been dragged, kicking and screaming out of government, and some of these are still on unstable ground. (Every time a Republican government comes in, some of women's reproductive rights are suddenly handed back to men. Great, well done guys!)

    None of our governments were set up to serve the will of the people. They were engineered to serve the will of the few. Their purpose is to rig the game so that he who was originally in power, stays in power, and keeps the challengers out. All the grand statements in Magna Carta, the Bills of Rights both English and US, were never intended to apply to mere commoners - it's pure happenstance that it came to be applied that way.

    So let's stop pretending that governments have ever served the will of the people. They have always protected the interests of the few against the best interests of their general population.

    Makes you wonder why we keep voting for more government.

    And why anyone's surprised that people with the will to power seek to manipulate it...

    When you look at the great history of revolutions - violent or otherwise - only the vanishing minority have ever proven to be beneficial to the population in the long term. It's a cycle - the wheel turns and crushes the old rulers into the mud. The mud is still mud, the wheel is still a wheel, and all you get is a new sod at the top.

    Why go through revolution only to appoint new masters. Why smash the old and replace it with the very same thing? Why keep doing the same things over and over, condemning ourselves to relive the mistakes of the past?

    Why keep calling for revolution when what you really want is a renaissance?

    My real question:
    What function does a nation-state actually serve?
  8. Daniel~

    Daniel~ Chief BBS Administrator Staff Member

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    With revolution we must go with the time. Day into night, Spring into fall," to everything there is a season"
    Revolutions brings about cyclic change. The book says that those who try to bring about revolution according to their own will and judgment shall fail.

    Your talking ideology. I'm talking inevitability. No matter weather we serve the Emperor or the President, live in a democracy or under a dictator:
    "Revolution comes in it's own time. Revolution is fought with danger."
    All systems of Government are subject to the same laws. when they become so corrupted with worn out customs that they no longer serve their purpose, when the needs of the people are non longer being met...The masses riser up!

    While an enforced code that prohibits wealth is not to be desired for a number of reasons...
    Wealth can and should be subject to limitation. As things are now wealth competes with the needs of the people. Wealth must be taught to serve the needs of the people. Where Wealth of it's own volition seeks to serve the people, revolutions are few and far between. Reforms can often accomplish the return to the way.

    But where the rich have lost sight of their own humanity and work against the best interest of the people and/or the people have lost sight of their own commonality...Revolution comes in it's own time.
  9. Kaitain

    Kaitain Active Member

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    So... the walking assemblies of psychiatric and personality disorders that seek to rule over us, and use power and money as weapons... they have to develop a concept of "enough"? And you call me the idealist?

    :p

    You state that when a government becomes corrupted with worn out customs, so follows the revolution, but my original point was that government was founded in corruption, and corruption is its purpose. The revolutionary fighter might genuinely believe that he is good and noble, but the realpolitik of revolution is that implementing the new order isn't as simple as it seemed, and making it work requires that elements of the old order are preserved rather than replaced. The revolution replaces the sod on the top, but doesn't clear all the baked-on mud from the tyre's treads.

    Anyway, because I'm interested, my question again: what is the point of a nation state?

    To extend the thought experiment a little more: what do you think would really happen if we dissolved all international borders?
  10. Gizmo

    Gizmo Chief Site Administrator Staff Member

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    People would find new excuses to build cliques and exclude others.

    Realistically, as long as we think of ourselves in ANY way other than as equals, that's going to happen. Frankly, I can't see any way to prevent it.

    Nor do I think it's necessarily a bad thing. I don't want to live around the guy that stinks to high heaven because he won't observe basic hygiene, any more than some people want to live around me. We just need to stop killing each other over our differences.
  11. Daniel~

    Daniel~ Chief BBS Administrator Staff Member

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    In my view this all points back to the absolute need to educate the masses.
    The only ;legitimate excuse any government has when ruling us is that they serve our needs, dispense social justice and provide for our common defense. and that they have the assent of the people at large.

    It really doesn't matter if the midwife is a whore and a thief, is she brings forth a living breathing child,her sins may be forgiven and the darker side of her nature kept under gentle control. We are talking about gathering people together. We should not seek to change man or his nature. We should strive only to regulate, to take that which is to much and lesson it. Take that which is to little and increase it

    A fair and just tax system is the very foundation of good government.
    Finally we should not seek to achieve everything at once. We must be content with those reforms which have the support of the people. Only those laws which have the popular support of the people can be enforced.

    When they do not find support with the people they merely cause resentment and go unenforced. Laws must be clear and swiftly enforced in the open where all may see that justice is being done..

    We have seen that people tend to accept nearly any government, so long as they can feed themselves and their children. We need not guess at the time of resolution The masses will proclaim the time for us when they rise up.":O}
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2017
  12. Daniel~

    Daniel~ Chief BBS Administrator Staff Member

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    Last first then...As international borders exist only in our minds Only our minds need to change. What if our minds should change what then?...not much, we change our minds everyday. But will we...?
    Someday, I have some degree of faith in this, We will walk away from all our devisions. We will still meet with opposition but opposition need not divide us.

    Where does the nation state begin?
    It begins with the family.
    Then grows to encompass the clan.

    The nation state is a natural development.We come together to achieve what cannot be achieve in any other way. This is the birthplace of nations. It has it's foundations in the family. That over time it becomes corrupted does not change why we came together in the beginning.

    K. wrote:

    "You state that when a government becomes corrupted with worn out customs, so follows the revolution, but my original point was that government was founded in corruption, and corruption is its purpose.."

    Here we see things differently. There is nothing corrupt that did not have it's beginnings in the Good. If there were no good there would be nothing to corrupt. So Corruption can never be a purpose in itself. It must have something good before it can begin it's corrupting influence.

    Let's look more closely at corruption. Let's use steal. Rust corrupts steal. Does it always corrupt steal?
    Or only when steal is unprotected? What can prevent corruption in our social lives?
    I would suggest that we find a preventive in adhering to what originally brought us together.

    The needs of humanity. To meet these needs we set up a system of custom and laws. These regulate how we interact with one another.

    Over time these laws come to be used by the few to oppress the many.

    We need not change the world, only ourselves. We need only remember the brotherhood that brought us together. Need only remember we are family.

    There are quarrels within the family. But love regulates the intercourse within the family so in time all quarrels are settled and we can continue in our progress.

    Finally...There is EVIL in the world.

    This must be combated at every turn. Evil seeks always to divide us with false claims and treachery. That there is evil in this world in no way negates the good men would seek to do.

    .As there is good cause to join together, Mutual aid and common defense, we are always seeking to do so. As there are always differing points of view, the danger of conflict is always present. But conflict can and should be avoided. We need only strive to understand one another's needs in a just and equatable fashion.

    It's my thought that this is at lest as much a matter of the heart as it is of the mind.
    When our brothers ask of us we give, but when a stranger asks of us, ...do we make of them a brother?

    I also believe that humanity is not a matter that is to be settled all at once. I believe we settle these questions
    one person at a time.

    I believe that we are each settling these questions one by one, joy by joy and sorrow by sorrow.

    When we make another our brother, we slay ten thousand enemies.

    So one by one until the last man yields to the goodness he has been suppressing within him.

    I use to think that one man could never really help another. But now I think I see a way that help might pass from one who is clear within to one who lives in confusion.

    I see it in the way nature teaches nearly all it's young. Nature teaches us though example.

    If a man rectifies himself and can bring himself to part with all that is false and low he becomes a shinning example to the people who look up to him and are encourage by his very existence to make such an effort themselves.

    So in the end sacrifice alone has the power to help this world. We are all called to sacrifice what can
    never lead to a good end. To give up what might harm another. To strive to know Divinity.

    In the I Ching, in the commentaries it states that Whether or not the Divine has a God-head
    ( A persona, A personal identity a part from creation) was not an important question.

    The Divinity of the Universe is seen as self proclaiming. But they go a bit further...
    "That which is truly divine does not express itself on Earth apart from Holy men and the Sages Their words should be taken as the means by which men may elevate themselves."

    "We cannot make them do it"

    What we can do is strive within ourselves to follow the teachings of those who came before us.

    Of those who looked up and saw so much more than just the Stars. They saw a path upon which Humanity must embark if we are ever to gain the Heavens by living in peace here on Earth.
  13. cloasters

    cloasters Well-Known Member

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    Very interesting posts, thank you! Was away for a week, had my gall bladder removed because it was chock full of stones. Unhappy midriff, but no complications fortunately. Good to be back!
  14. Daniel~

    Daniel~ Chief BBS Administrator Staff Member

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    Good lord George! I wondered where you were! Did this come over you all at once or has this been troubling you for a while? I certainly hope your feeling better!
    You really should have said something! Boo and me are sill praying for your ingrown toe nails!
    Boo! We have to elevate our prayers for Cloisters! ":O}
  15. ThunderRd

    ThunderRd Irreverent Query Chairman Staff Member

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    Go slowly, George, and feel better soon.
  16. Daniel~

    Daniel~ Chief BBS Administrator Staff Member

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    Think of the wind tearing dead limbs off the trees covered in winters snow. Think of animals shedding last years pelts. Think of winter being over come by the return of the light. Think of a well in need of being cleaned out and having it's stones reset. all of these things give expression to what is meant by revolution.

    This is a very old concept. It has been made enduring because it rightly explains a type of change that is always with us.

    Cyclic change. Change that reliably repeats year after year,millennium after millennium.
    The Seasons and all that changes with the seasons. The alternation of the light and the dark, the change in which one dominates only to be subdued by transformation into it's opposite..

    Revolution literally means a rotation, a completion of the cycle.

    Yet there is change,an evolution as the cycle repeats. A good way to picture this is a spiral.

    One can be going up or down in the same cycle. We can experience progress or regression depending upon how we meet the changes.

    At times action becomes impossible due to inferior men occupying places of power.and retreat is all that is left to a man. But retreat should not be confused with flight that tries only to save it self.

    Retreat is a sigh of strength. A means to retain control of ones forces that other wise would be destroyed without achieving anything. We retreat until revolution brings about a time of change.

    This "Time" permeates everything as does the winter cold and the summer heat.

    It should be pointed out that "Revolution" is but one aspect of a complex and extremely sophisticated system of thought. It cannot be completely expressed without understanding the system of thought that gave rise to the concept.

    "Revolution comes in it's own "time"
    But so does "Standstill, stagnation" Peace, Oppression and many more in a interlocking understanding of each other, as each in time modifies the other. Evey hexagram like every situation is capable of turning, though a large or small succession of changes into any other. And does.

    This includes the idea of being on time. To grasp what is possible in the moment and what will require a lifetime to bring about.

    It teaches how to understand and how to use each moment to bring about what takes a lifetime to bring to completion.This is what at lest in part is meant by the saying,

    "To know the changes, this is divine indeed."

    To understand things in there germinal beginnings and understand how to being them to flourishion.
    To see the changes coming allows us to prepare for winter cold and summer's heat.

    To know the changes is to see the finger of God writing our fates and inscribing our Destinies.
    Fate being the world we are born into, the world that will not change nor stop changing to suit our desires.

    And Destiny being our Divine appointment. The end toward which our live and our actions carry us.

    So our lives move in a spiral weather we like it or no. We repeat and repeat. But we can direct the repetition even if we can not change it. Which is to say we can guide the changes we pass though by our behavior. We can ascend or descend in each cycle. In each point of change there is the unchangeable and the changeable within the unchangeable.

    A black horse will never give birth to a pig. But it might well give birth to a white horse if conditions are right.
    Somethings are within our limitations and many more things are not!

    So what revolution offers us is the chance to do it over and this time with proper care brought on by the humility of past failures perhaps get it right.

    I did not learn to ride a bike in a single day. I failed for many days. But each new day let me draw upon my past failures to arrive at last a a point where I could balance myself in the middle of the changes my peddling brought about.

    We are men and very little of value comes easy to us. We need many chances. Revolution brings about abundance and abundance means many chances, chances to do good, chances to do evil.

    Chances to do good where once we chose evil. Chances to to make restitution. It is only because life is cyclical that we can make amends. We can to return to a past failure of charter or knowledge and do a better job this time.

    Just think about that! We can do a better job next time! We can unitize past failures to bring about success!
    We are not forever crippled by the wrong turns we take!! We can bring about improvement in ourselves. Day by day cycle by cycle.

    Trust the natural patterns that repeat. they have been refined over many millions of years. The spinning lathe of repetition has smoothed away ten thousand past mistakes to bring to you this very day in which you must choose if you are to be chosen.

    Not the brightest star in our heavens can do that!

    I find myself in complete agreement with Joni Mitchel when she wrote:

    "We are stardust
    We are golden
    and we've got to
    get back to the garden"
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2017
  17. ThunderRd

    ThunderRd Irreverent Query Chairman Staff Member

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    You've missed the most important line of the chorus, though:

    "We are stardust, we are golden,

    We are caught in the devil's bargain,

    And we got to get ourselves back to the garden."


    That's the last chorus of the song. Someplace in there she also sings "We are billion year old carbon."
  18. cloasters

    cloasters Well-Known Member

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    I went to the VA hospital at about 10 PM on Mar 1st. Didn't dream that they would keep me. I'm elated to say that my gall stones didn't hurt anywhere in the neighborhood that Gizmo's did! It really bites being "tied" to the bed by an IV drip. Naturally my tv on the ward was kaput. The entertainment situation was glorious!

    Could have been FAR worse. I'm glad that I only have to go back to have a stent removed, by going down my throat and not cutting me open again. I asked them to mount the gall bladder to put on my living room wall. No such luck. Fortunately.

    Had no access to a computer, it would have been nice not to just disappear from the site.
  19. Daniel~

    Daniel~ Chief BBS Administrator Staff Member

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    Why thank you TR! You are correct as many times as I've listened to it I never caught either line!
    And both make such real contributions as you point out! You've made me happy! ":O}.
  20. Daniel~

    Daniel~ Chief BBS Administrator Staff Member

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    if it's anything like with my dentist they kept it to sell as a used spare part! Ask them if an extra 20 left secretly under your pillow wouldn't get you the wall mounting of your dreams! Don't worry about not having a computer. They just want to make sure your cut off from the outside world.
    .Now why would they do that?
    Anyway relax and try not to worry. I don't think worrying about a Zombie apocalypses counts as actual worrying,
    It's more like planing for your future.

    P.S.
    If they won't do the right thing at lest try to get a share of the money out of them.

    Find a pretty young nurse and threaten to report her for making improper advances if they show any reluctance to gie you a share. (They hate to hate to share with non-professional persons!) Hang tight and hold your ground!


    Pretend your talking to your lawyer on the phone when they let you have outside phone privileges!
    Remember! Your the one in charge here!

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